DR. DAVID JEREMIAH: "The
Turning Point" Author, Radio Broadcaster
And College President
With Bill and Janae Cooksey
We would fall down as dead! We don't become
angels! ...false angels... I am a sinner!
I know I cannot save myself...
Taken From "Cooksey's
American Carousel Radio Classics"
TWELVE MEN WITH A PASTOR'S HEART
BILL: You did bring the book?
JANAE: Got it right here on the table.
BILL: Now, you really liked Dr. Jeremiah's book on angels. Didn't you?
JANAE: Oh, it's so right on. He presents Scripture on every subject you can imagine on dozens of truths about angelic beings.
BILL: Why does the theme of researching angels interest you so much?
JANAE: Well, I knew a girl once in Arizona that went off with a tent ministry. And she really thought the evangelist was a man of God. But he began saying things that didn't line up with the Scriptures from time to time. After she'd been with the tent ministry for a few months, he brought her into his confidence. He informed her he wasn't a man.....but really an angel.
BILL: Come on. You're making this up because we're about to interview Dr. Jeremiah about his book on angels.
JANAE: No. I'm serious. This really happened to someone I knew quite well. And she was saved too. This man tried to scare her by trying to make her think he could read her thoughts. And to prove it, he would create situations that made it appear he had angelic powers. Several times he caused a distraction, disappeared seemingly right before her eyes and later claimed that he had to visibly leave at that moment because God was sending him on a mission.
BILL: Okay, Janae. Everyone knows you have a vivid imagination. Quit pulling my leg.
JANAE: No, no. It's real. I promise you. This man even had an angel name that he showed this girl written on antique parchment. All she told me she could remember was it started with the letter "M".
BILL: Promise me you won't bring this story up when we talk to David Jeremiah. He'll think you're off your rocker to say you had an acquaintance like this.
JANAE: Bill, I'm telling you exactly what she said happened! This "self-proclaimed" angel had a wife and kids too. Worse than what I've told you already, his wife bought the whole story. She actually thought she was married to an angel. But, you know, the man was smart in only allowing those in his close little circle to know his claims of being an angel. My friend said he never preached any of that from the pulpit during their public meetings. In the end, this character was arrested for molesting his own children and shipped off to prison for a long time. He probably has his cell mates convinced he's been sent there by God to help them fly over the walls.
BILL: Once a con...always a con. People want to believe things like that. That's really bad. But why didn't the girl call him on it. You said she was a Christian.
JANAE: Well, like so many other Christians, she didn't know the Scriptures pertaining to angels.
BILL: Oh, so that's why you like Dr. Jeremiah's book so much.
JANAE: Right! His "What The Bible Says About Angels" is the type of resource my friend really needed. It can stop people from buying these deceiving lies we hear everywhere today about angels.
BILL: Some authors specialize in shocking subjects that stimulate folks into purchasing a book because of the bizarre subject matter. But David Jeremiah is totally the opposite from this type of writer I'm referring to. He is a very solid Bible teacher. Did you know that his radio program is on over 300 stations nationwide daily?
JANAE: No, I didn't. I am aware that he is a much beloved pastor in San Diego and even the President of Christian Heritage College.
BILL: I've listened to him for years. He's really got a great sense of humor.
JANAE: You just stay out of my way on this one. I've personally got a lot of questions for Dr. Jeremiah on this book.
RICH: Okay, guys. Dr. Jeremiah's on the line. Are you ready?
JANAE: You can count on it!
RICH: Stand by.....Cooksey's American Carousel interview with Dr. David Jeremiah begins in three...two...one.
COOKSEY: Well, Dr. Jeremiah, we're just so excited to have you on our program, Cooksey's American Carousel. Janae's been reading your book about angels.
JEREMIAH: Well, I'm excited about anybody who reads a book I write. Especially, when they get excited too.
COOKSEY: And what's the news now? I understand the book is going to be picked up into a secular market also.
JEREMIAH: We've just gotten word that one of the secular distributors has now decided to put this in some of the secular bookstores. And that's really thrilling to us.
COOKSEY: Isn't that great? That means somebody can pick up your book about angels instead of some of the other angel books on the market. Right?
JEREMIAH: Well, yes, Sir! And I believe if that were to happen, they're going to get the truth about angels instead of a lot of speculation.
COOKSEY: That's correct. You know, Dr. Jeremiah, we have enjoyed your program for years for just being able to hear good solid teaching. And you're down there in that terrible weather in San Diego. I know it's very hard on you.
JEREMIAH: I love it here.
COOKSEY: A lot of the listeners around the country that have heard your program have been very concerned over the past couple of years about your health. And you did go through the bout with cancer. Is that correct?
JEREMIAH: Yes, I did. I had "Non-Hodgkin's Lymphoma". I'm happy to report through the prayers of God's people and the Grace of the Lord, I'm in remission. And I'm feeling very well now.
COOKSEY: Praise God! Hallelujah. Well, we're going to get on to this book, because Janae's just chomping at the bit here. Go ahead, Janae.....Well, I'm delighted with the book and I would like to let our listeners know the reason that you stated in the book as to why you even wrote the book to begin with.
JEREMIAH: Well, you know, Janae, I started out to write the book to try to dispel some of the craziness that was going on in the world about angels. But the more I got into the subject, I realized that any study of an angel...any study of God's Angels...will just lead you to the Lord. Because angels had one major purpose and that was to worship God. And when you understand their purpose, you can't help but worship Him too.
COOKSEY: So, when an angel comes to visit you, everything inside of you should rise up to worship God.
JEREMIAH: That's exactly right. And, Janae, that's at the point of controversy today. Because in all the secular books on angels, the focus is on the angels and God's in the background. But in the Bible, the angels are in the background and God's at centerstage.
COOKSEY: That's how you can tell the difference for sure.
JEREMIAH: Exactly right.
COOKSEY: Would you explain to our listeners please, Dr. Jeremiah, about testing the spirit to know if it's a spirit of "anti-Christ" or if it's the Spirit of the Lord?
JEREMIAH: You know, the Bible has a clear formula about that. And often times people think that if they can get somebody to say that this is the Son of God...that Jesus is the Son of God...that automatically makes that person from the Lord. But, you know, the Bible says even the devil believes in God and he trembles. The thing you have to understand is this. If you're in contact with somebody who claims to be from the Lord, you won't be around them very long before you'll discover whether or not their heart is really toward God or towards something else or themselves. When you talk to people about angels, if they don't begin to talk about Jesus pretty quick, then you know they're off on the wrong track. Because you cannot get involved in this subject of angels without being drawn to the Lord.
COOKSEY: Amen. So, if an angel should visit you...because there's a lot of false angels that are visiting people today...how do you know at that very precise moment that this angel has come from the Lord? Is there anything that happens in your heart or inside your spirit?
JEREMIAH: You know, what's really funny to me is when I read the stories of encounters with angels today, I see all of this. People being raptured in light and all of the warm fuzzies come over them...and all this sort of thing. But, you know, when you read in the Bible an encounter of an individual with an angel in almost every single situation, Janae, they fell down as dead. People were so awed by the splendor and majesty of one of God's Angels. We've taken the glory and majesty out of angels and we've made them cuddly, little teddy bears that we take to bed with us to dispel the darkness. And that's not what the Bible teaches. I guarantee you today if an angel walked into our presence, we would not be filled with warm glowing light. We would be so awe-struck that we would fall down as dead.
COOKSEY: Now for those of you listening, if you are not strongly founded in the Word, I need to ask Dr. Jeremiah an important question. For these people who fall down as if dead, are they worshipping God or the angel?
JEREMIAH: Well, you know, John had a couple of encounters with angels in the Book of Revelation. He didn't fall down as if dead at first. He begin to worship the angel. And the angel rebuked him and said, "Stand up and don't do that. I'm not God. You worship God." Angels are to point us to God. Anybody who knows what the Bible says about angels will tell you definitely that angels are never to be worshipped. And angels rebuke those who try to worship them...and tell people over and over again, "Your purpose is to worship God."
COOKSEY: Dr. Jeremiah, in your book you refer to a vision that has to do with a ladder and angels going up and down.
JEREMIAH: Yes, that's from the Old Testament. That's a wonderful story that pictures the relationship between Heaven and earth. It certainly isn't a hierarchy of angels as some of the cults like to teach. But, it is a wonderful, wonderful picture of our relationship with God in the dream of Jacob in the Old Testament.
COOKSEY: And what does the ladder represent?
JEREMIAH: I think the ladder represents the relationship between Heaven and earth. It certainly isn't a ladder of works. It's God reaching down to us...not us reaching up to God. That's for certain.
COOKSEY: Amen! So actually you could say that Jesus is the ladder.
JEREMIAH: Just as the Cross upon which He died in a very wonderful picture...uh...I always when I talk about the Cross, Janae. I always like to say, "The Cross was a wonderful visual aid." It had one part of the Cross reaching up to Heaven,...reaching down from Heaven to earth. And then it had the crossbars with the Lord's Arms stretched out as if He was saying to the whole world, "Come unto Me all ye that labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." And Jesus Christ became the link between Father in Heaven and man. And I tell our people when I preach the Gospel here that Jesus Christ was the God-man and He reached up one Hand and took hold of the Father. And He reached down the other Hand and took hold of lost men and He brought them together at the Cross.
COOKSEY: Oh, I like that. Praise God! Angels don't have salvation then. Do they?
JEREMIAH: You know what? I love the old hymn we used to sing, "But Angels Never Knew The Joy That Our Salvation Brings." You know, angels desire to look onto salvation according to the New Testament. But an angel can't be redeemed because angels aren't lost. Of course, the angels that fell fell when Lucifer fell. And they are consigned forever in their lost condition. Jesus Christ didn't come to this world to save angels. He came into this world to save lost men and women.
COOKSEY: So that makes us pretty special. Praise the Lord.
JEREMIAH: As great as it must be to be an angel, there's one thing they can never know. They will never know the joy of knowing redemption as we have known it. The Bible actually says they kind of wish they could figure that out. They desire to look into it. But they can't understand it.
COOKSEY: They can only observe it.
JEREMIAH: That's right.
COOKSEY: Now days so many people comfort one another when they have lost a loved one through death...you know, a child or a mother. They'll say, "Oh, Sweetheart, that person is now an angel. How would you explain that?
JEREMIAH: Well, the fact is, as wonderful and comforting as that truth may be, when God created the angels, He created all of the angels that would ever be. There have never been any new angels created since the Day of Creation. So, there are exactly as many angels today as there were on the Day of Creation. No more. No less. The Bible says angels do not marry nor are they given in marriage. So they don't have angel children. And angels are probably created as adult figures. We don't have any real reason to believe there are little cherubs running around up in Heaven. So, that may be a nice thing to say, but it just isn't true. We don't become angels. We have the opportunity when we die, if we know the Lord Jesus Christ as our Savior before we die...we will get brand new glorified bodies that are like the Resurrection Body of the Lord Jesus Christ which is far better than being an angel. So why would you want to be an angel, if you could have a Body like the Lord Jesus Christ?
COOKSEY: So "Highway To Heaven" and "Touched By An Angel" are just cute little comforting television stories that are not true.
JEREMIAH: Or Clarence! I always loved old Clarence in that Christmas thing, you know. It's a great story, but it just doesn't equate with the Scriptures.
COOKSEY: Yes, it's entertaining. But, you know, each one of us must find our own "Turning Point" in our lives. That's the name of your radio program, by the way. It's really a wonderful name, because that's exactly what we must have, a "turning point". Would you take a moment right here and tell our listeners what a turning point really is and pray with them?
JEREMIAH: Well, Janae, here's why we call our program, "The Turning Point". We believe that when God's Word intersects with life, there always will be a turning point. And the first major turning point that has to happen in the life of any person is to have to come to understand that no, they're not going to go to Heaven because they're good. The turning point comes when we realize that we're lost. We're separated from a Holy God because of our sin. And we come to understand that the only hope we have of Heaven is to put our trust in Jesus Christ. When a man understands that, he will have a turning point. And then, he will reach out by faith to receive the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and his only hope of Heaven. The only way a person can ever get to Heaven...the only "Highway To Heaven", Janae, is through the shed Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. What Jesus did on the Cross was He paid the penalty for all our sin. And if we will put our trust in Him and what He did, He will be our Salvation. And I know there are some of you listening to us today who have never had that turning point in your life. And I'd like to ask Jesus Christ to do for you what no one else can do...what you cannot do for yourself. And that is to trust Him alone for Salvation. If you desire to know that faith and to know God, here's what you need to do. Just pray this prayer. "Dear God, I know I am a sinner. I know I cannot save myself. I know you do not grade on the curve. Lord, I know I have to be holy as You are Holy. And so today I put my trust in my only hope Who is Jesus Christ, the Holy Son of God. And I believe in Him and I trust Him as my Savior. Lord Jesus, come into my heart and save me from my sin I pray. In Jesus Name. Amen.
COOKSEY: Amen! I tell you, Dr. Jeremiah, there are countless millions of people who need the Lord right now. And that prayer has touched someone. I never doubt it for one second. Radio does that. And I know that's why for years now you've extended your ministry into broadcasting also.
COOKSEY: I want to encourage anyone who is going down to San Diego to stop by the Shadow Mountain Community Church and hear you speak.
JEREMIAH: We would love to visit with them. That's for sure.
COOKSEY: And your radio programs can be heard all over the country. I pray your book, "What The Bible Says About Angels", can be put in libraries all over so people can know the truth about angels. Dr. Jeremiah, thank you so much for joining us and God bless you in your work for the Lord.
JEREMIAH: Thank you very much.